Thanks for writing.

I don’t think any church should be required to host a wedding for a couple it feels are in violation of it’s teachings — whether that’s a divorced person remarrying or two people of the same gender marrying. But I don’t see any way to justify making either marriage illegal.

The movie “Hell and Mr. Fudge,” due for release in 2012, and which I have nothing to do with producing but only am cooperating with producers as the subject of the story, is “based on a true story.” That statement implies that certain license is taken for dramatic effect. As it happens, the emotional impact of my childhood friend’s death on my thinking is considerably overblown in the movie. My “case” for the final extinction of the wicked rests on scores if not hundreds of Scrriptures from Genesis through Revelation — most of which you and I never heard while growing up. It is not without good reason that such respected Church of Christ writers as Homer Hailey, Jim McGuiggan, F. LaGard Smith, Steven Clark Goad, Tom Robinson, Matt Soper, Jeff Christian, Rob McRay, Lynn Mitchell, and such highly-respected conservative Bible scholars not from Churches of Christ such as F.F.Bruce, John Stott, Clark Pinnock, N.T. Wright, Richard Bauckham, John Wenham, John Stackhouse, John Franke, I. Howard Marshall and many, many more reject the traditional view of unending conscious torment on BIBLICAL grounds.

I encourage you to read “The Fire That Consumes,” the third edition came out in 2011 from Wipf and Stock Publishers, and in it I answer 17 traditionalist authors of 12 books written in response to my first edition 30 years ago.

I appreciate the spirit of your comments. I think the decision on whether to participate in such events lies in the judgment of parents. And, if it violates the conscience of those involved, they certainly should abstain. Each set of circumstances, situation, and surroundings is different. Sometimes, the abstaining of singing certain songs may have a positive effect – just as you mention above. These matters are not easy and should not be treated casually.

My main point is the need for wisdom in how we handle ourselves, Colossians 4.5-6. The abrasive, in-your-face, and often condescending communication that comes from some who object to secular observation of Christmas can turn people off. I’ve seen it lately all across my Facebook stream – with people shouting in all caps about not celebrating a manmade holiday and participating in the traditions of men, etc. This type of communication, whether it is on a computer screen or spoken verbally, will have an opposite effect from what we desire.

And, for years I have seen those who do question participation in the cultural observance of this & other holidays brow beat & judge the motives of those who have come to a different conclusion. Such matters are not productive and can become points of division.

I guess the bottom line on this issue is that it does lie inside the realm of judgment and we need to be respectful of each other’s personal conclusions. Obviously coming from a different perspective than many of my critics, I’m just pointing out how it often feels from this side of the fence.

Thanks for writing….and thanks for using ABR.

You mentioned in your article those, who for conscience sake, did not participate in songs in a concert. “While the performance was going on, there were a number of kids who stood off to the side and did not participate as a few Christmas songs were sung.”

You later talked about the impression the stand these young people took gave in the community. If you go back to Romans 14 and consider how it should be applied to this question, what other option do these Christians have? Do they do that which they believe to be against their conscience? Does the possible view of the audience make a difference in what they should do?

As I as a parent have tried to build a biblical faith in my children. There are so many conflicts like this that can be opportunities for them to humbly build their faith. The peer pressure is so great to never stand out and be different in anything. Perhaps some of the stands were “opinion” but still what should one do?

I have found that a humble stand in areas like this does produce opportunities for the gospel. All of my children have been highly involved in Music and have struggled with the numerous conflicts that come up in being part of a public school. They did not take a stand to produce evangelistic opportunities but, over time, their friends came to see a genuine faith that did open doors.

This is far from the harsh viewpoint some are taking of our young as they try to maintain a good conscience.

I prayerfully hope this post may make us think further on the actions and motivations of our brethren.

In Christian Love,
Larry Rouse

(My reply to brother Matthew Allen regarding an article he wrote with the above title. Below, I give my thoughts under each point he raised in the article. This is not meant as an attack on Matt, but an attempt at giving an alternative viewpoint in meekness and concern for truth and souls, both his, mine, and others.)

MA: It’s that time of year again. You know, the time of year where we have our annual discussion within churches of Christ about exchanging gifts,

TB: Do brethren really engage discussions about whether we can exchange gifts? Not that I have ever heard. I have never heard brethren argue that it is wrong to exchange gifts.

MA: the existence of Santa Claus,

TB: Do brethren really engage discussions about the existence of Santa Claus? Not that I have ever heard. So, we can see right out of the box that this article is not going to give a fair analysis of what the discussion is really about.

MA: putting up a tree, hanging lights, wearing red, and anything else associated with the national holiday that comes around each December 25.

TB: I don’t recall anyone saying that you cannot do these things on Dec.25 as a national holiday.

MA: There are strong opinions on both sides.

TB: I don’t think I have ever heard strong opinions about the above items listed and it being done as part of a secular national holiday.

MA: (I got reminded of that earlier this week when I waded into the thick of two Facebook discussions). But did you notice the key word I just used? The issue centers around one’s opinion. That’s right, this matter is an issue of judgment for each Christian – just like participation in every other cultural celebration.

TB: If one of the Facebook discussions was on my list (Matt waded into that one), then you AGREED that we are not to sing that Jesus was born on Dec.25, and that we are not to pretend that He was. You also admit that it is not merely an OPINION that the church should not corporately sing and pretend that Dec.25 is Jesus birthday. So, this is more than a mere personal issue that calls for Romans 14 to encourage individuals to believe what they want to about Dec.25.

MA: While there is no scriptural authority for the church to engage in a religious observance celebrating December 25 as Jesus’ birthday, there certainly should be no prohibition for an individual Christian or family to say a prayer of thanks and sing songs of praise for Jesus’ birth – two Sundays from now – or on any day of the year.

TB: No one has said that you can’t personally thank God for Jesus’ birth every day including Dec.25. But, you cannot just sing and pretend that Dec.25 IS the birthday of Jesus, nor to recklessly lend your influence and support to those who have already swallowed that error. Lets us thank God for Jesus birth always while clarifying to those who have been misled that Jesus birth is being misrepresented in a number of ways.

MA: While we know December 25 is most likely not the day Jesus was born, we do know He was born and should be thankful for it. After all, we couldn’t have had a death and resurrection without a birth, right?

TB: That is true, but that is not the issue. Never has been the issue.

MA: And, we certainly should take advantage of the opportunities we have this time of year to share not only the story of the birth of Jesus, but the salvation that comes through His victory over sin and death on the cross. While people in the world are thinking more about Jesus than at any other time of the year – shouldn’t we joyfully share the greatest story ever told – instead of wearing a frown and sternly preaching that Jesus wasn’t born on December 25 and that Christmas was a Catholic adaptation of a pagan holiday?

TB: We should joyfully share the story at all times of year and endeavor to correct the errors that are commonly promoted. We should do that year round including this season. You admitted that Jesus was not born on Dec.25. Should you not joyfully share that information? And, since it is true that Christmas was a Catholic adaption of a pagan holiday, shouldn’t you joyfully share that information? Can you really be happy with the lies being promoted, and just ignore that, and then speak up reproachfully when brethren tell the truth?

MA: Do we realize how we sound? That to some, we often speak in a language they don’t understand? And do we realize that instead of opening up doors of possibility that God gives us – we could very well slam some doors shut?

TB: We “sound” like a cult to others on the issue of baptism. Should we cease preaching the truth about baptism because the ignorant deem us to be a cult? Remember that Jesus and the early Christians “sounded” weird to the ignorant masses. We don’t teach them the truth by merely pretending that we agree with their misguided conclusions. We should be warm and friendly, but we do not help them by compromising the truth. We “speak in a language they don’t understand” (biblical language) to help them start understanding the Bible on the Lord’s Supper, Baptism, the time of reformation says to give up the incense and instrumental music, etc. Do we just go along with their practices for fear of not speaking their language? Where does speaking God’s language come in? I’m for being tactful and harmless and wise, but not for compromise of God’s truth.

MA: How we come across is extremely important. Sometimes I wonder if some people out there could more closely associate some of us with Jehovah’s Witnesses or even Atheists than Jesus Christ.

TB: The problem is that they don’t know the right Jesus (2 Cor.11:3-4). They have been taught “another Jesus”. Our job is to “cast down imaginations”(2 Cor.10:4f) and “every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ” (the real one). In the first century, those in darkness associated the early Christians with atheism and cannibalism and “the sect of the Nazarenes”, a group “everywhere spoken against”. We should be more concerned about whether people can learn enough about the real Jesus to associate us with Him. Our only concern about “how we come across” is that we strive to come across as harmless as doves and as wise as serpents, but obviously devoted to telling the truth and correcting error.

MA: A few years ago a sister I know attended a choir concert at a local school. While the performance was going on, there were a number of kids who stood off to the side and did not participate as a few Christmas songs were sung. A member of the local community who was not a Christian commented that it was sad to her to see how atheism was spreading to such young children. While the parents of those kids and maybe the kids themselves understood what was going on – the world didn’t – and just associated it with something that was not even close to the truth.

TB: So, would you have recommended that these young kids join in the singing with instruments and sing along with lyrics that do not speak the truth? If the lady had talked to these kids, she may have found out that her assumption was far from the truth. These young people believed in Jesus enough to represent His story correctly and without the instruments. We cannot always help how people in darkness perceive of us. But, those kids are to be commended for abiding by their conscience. Those in darkness do not understand a lot of things. Those in the light understand, and God understands and appreciates the conviction to stand for the truth conscientiously.

MA: These are just a few random thoughts I have. I understand there are many angles to this discussion. I understand that there are many discrepancies between cultural traditions, various church narratives and celebrations, and the biblical record. And, I do think that we can use our best judgment and discretion to take advantage of opportunities to politely set the record straight. Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person, Colossians 4.5-6.

TB: I agree that we should strive to politely set the record straight. But, we do not set it straight by singing error with instrumental music just to fit in and not be thought of as an atheist. Our lives should testify of faith in Jesus daily so that people who know us know that we believe in Jesus, the right one.

MA: And also, I know many readers will disagree with some of my thoughts above. That’s OK. That’s your judgment on this matter – and you are free to come to your own conclusion. But just remember: the one who chooses not to participate in the cultural observations of Christmas is no more spiritual than the one who does. As with other matters of judgment within the church, we should apply the principles of Romans 14.

TB: I agree that there are cultural, fully secular aspects of the Christmas season that we can engage. But, we must not promote error regarding the Biblical story of Jesus birth, life, teaching, death, or resurrection. Romans 14 would apply to the secular stuff that does not matter to God one way or the other. Romans 14 does not allow that we can promote error regarding Jesus’ birth.

MA: Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God, Romans 14.5-7.

TB: It seems that you passed judgment on the conscientious students who did not want to misrepresent Jesus in songs about His birth and likely with instrumental music. If you are going to use Romans 14, be sure that you are using it correctly in matters that don’t matter one way or the other to God. The truth about when Jesus was born and what really happened is a matter that matters to God. I would feel compelled to judge that those caught up in the lies of the Christ-mass story are likely not right with God on a number of other crucial Bible topics. Decorating a tree and exchanging presents does not matter to God one way or the other. But, singing lies about Jesus and making Dec.25 a holy day to God, confirming to others that the lies they believe are true, is not a Romans 14 issue.

MA: And as we go forward, let’s resolve to heed something else Paul wrote concerning matters of judgment: Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God, Romans 14.10.

TB: Let us be careful not to misuse Romans 14 to justify promotion of error. The secular aspects of the season do not matter to God, and on those things we should not judge our brethren. But, the errors of Jesus’ birth that are promoted in songs and manger displays need to be avoided and corrected. These are not Romans 14 issues. They are Gal.1:6-10 issues. To brethren who are willing to pervert the gospel of Christ, we are to try to persuade them of the truth, and if they will not be persuaded, we are to let them be accursed.

MA: Maybe instead of passing judgment on each other, we’d do better to focus on the mission of Christ & reach the world with the life changing power of the gospel.

TB: This sounds noble on the surface, but this is not what you were spending your time doing when you wrote this article. From my point of view, when we try to correct error in regard to Jesus’ birth, we are trying to “reach the world with the life changing power of the gospel (the unaltered and unadulterated gospel of Christ). We must try to do that in as harmless a way as we can, but not so gentle that we never confront error with truth. I hope that we are brought closer together as a result of understanding coming out of this exchange. Terry W. Benton

There is also the mentality that human birth is something to be celebrated. An annual festivity to celebrate the lives of those we have relationships with. Anniversaries of all kinds are celebrated, from wedding anniversaries to national anniversaries such as Independence Day. We use these anniversaries to remember things that are important to us and hold significance in our lives. Jesus understood the necessity to have these periodic times of remembrance which is why He instigated the Lord’s Supper. Without it, the importance of His gift for us might have diminished over the years.

That being said, there are plenty of earthly anniversaries we all celebrate, one of those being birthdays. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we must celebrate the birth of our loved ones, and yet we feel we are free to do so. I honestly do not see why it is so wrong to take a day out of the year to celebrate Jesus’ birth. Sure, it might not be the day he was actually born. That’s not important. We set aside the day to remember that God humbled himself because of His love for us and made Himself like one of us. Jesus was human. He absolutely had an actual birthday. If we celebrate the birthdays of those we love, why NOT celebrate the birth of the One we are to love the most? Yes, there’s nothing in Christian doctrine that says we have to or that salvation depends on it. It doesn’t take precedence over the Lord’s Supper, and people would not be sinning if they didn’t celebrate Jesus’ birth. That doesn’t stop us from celebrating our own birthdays or those of our parents, children and friends because the Bible doesn’t command us to do so.

I honestly don’t believe Christians who celebrate Christmas are trying to ‘follow the masses’, or think they are somehow better or more spiritual than the Christians who choose not to. I just feel there simply is no harm in choosing a day to celebrate the birth of our Savior- no different than we celebrate the birth of the people close to us. We won’t go to Heaven because we remembered our mother’s birthday and bought her a cake and put lit candles on it and sang ‘Happy Birthday’. Neither will we go to Heaven because we recount the story of Jesus’ birth around a lit Christmas tree and sing ‘Oh Holy Night’. They are both done for the same reasons – simply to show appreciation and gladness that the ones we love were born into this world.

# of posts on this subject by Alan (on this thread & Terry’s thread): 15. # of words written by Alan: ~2882.

# of posts on this subject by Matthew (on this thread, Terry’s thread, and my ABR post): 10.
# of words written by Matthew: ~1874 (830 of that was my blog post and the ~1874 does not include the # of words in this post).

As far as the weak/strong brother – what if you’re the strong one & I’m the weak one? You must know far more about the Scriptures than I do. Will you & all who share your conclusions apply your rules? At present, they don’t. There have been countless articles in bulletins and periodicals, and hours and hours of sermons preached promoting your viewpoint. I dare say there are many on my side of this who are absolutely afraid to voice their opinion – lest they get their motives judged and get labeled as compromisers or grace-filled smooth talkers.

While you say you are willing to place this matter inside the realm of judgment, I have the impression that it’s really more than that with you – especially since you’ve mentioned Galatians 4.9-10 on several occasions. The context of that passage is referencing those who have fallen from grace, 5.4.

Nowhere have i argued for our corporate worship services to be used as a religious celebration of Jesus’ birthday. Like you, I oppose that and will teach against it. Nowhere have I argued that one should personally recognize Dec. 25 as Jesus’ birthday & celebrate it as fact.

I have spoken for personal liberty as to one’s right to pray/sing songs of praise for the birth of Christ during any season of the year. I have brought up the freedom of one’s right to choose in how far to go in adopting the cultural aspects of the day. I have spoken about the principles of Romans 14 and our attitude toward those with differing opinions. And, most importantly, I have pleaded for the usage of wisdom in how we teach those outside of Christ.

I know I’ve got some improvement to do with my attitude and impatience with others who don’t see it my way. But you do too. And we all do. We all need to be more careful in how we handle others within and without the church. Sometimes we let emotion get in the way. I fight it all the time – and it’s gotten the better of me a couple of times in this discussion. And for that, I’m sorry.

No matter what conclusions we come to on this – we’re still brothers with the same Father. Let’s be thankful for the relationship we have with each other because of the blood of His Son and our Brother.

You say I can have the last word. We will see if that happens. You say you have no agenda to push. And yet, you continue to write. You cannot leave it alone. Please, do not judge me if I do not leave it alone either. While you would try to leave this matter wholly in the realm of opinion, there are aspects of this discussion that relate to the issue of truth. You have admitted such and stated your agreement in your post about corporate worship:

“Like Terry, I have an issue w/the song he references above. That song is factually incorrect. Jesus was not born on 12/25.

As far as corporate worship, etc. – you & I are in agreement for the lack of authority for, etc.”

At least you have admitted that not all of this “Christmas controversy” fits neatly into a Romans 14 “do whatever you want, it’s all right” approach. To set forth only half of the issue (the so-called Romans 14 half) in an effort to make it appear that the “controversy” is ALL about opinion fails to address the “other side” of the discussion. Will you address it fairly and declare where you are on “religious celebrations” of a man-made, unscriptural holy day celebration of the birth(day) of Jesus Christ? Or will you continue to support such with your comments and articles.

Already, you have a comment on your FB page wherein your supporter is advocating the “religious celebration” of Christmas as something that will praise God. If the truth about Jesus’ birth is of no consequence, then celebrating such on Christmas day / December 25 should be NO problem. But, this is about more than just having dinner, exchanging presents, and having a TREE in your house. It is for many, many people in the world a “religious” celebration, a day of worship, directly related to the FALSE idea that Jesus was born ON this day. Surely, you are not supporting this.

You did not address your obligation as a strong brother to keep your opinion to yourself (ala Romans 14:22). You denied the importance of the instruction and did the passover when you stated it “makes no difference” whether you regard yourself as the strong or the weak brother. Ah, but it DOES indeed make a difference, your denial notwithstanding. God instructs both the strong brother and the weak brother in this text in how they are to treat one another. The strong brother is told specifically NOT to create a situation where his knowledge / understanding will subvert the weaker brother who does NOT have the same understanding. The strong brother is told directly “The faith which thou hast, have thou to thyself before God. Happy is he that judgeth not himself in that which he approveth.” – vs. 22. This is NOT what you are doing.

I do not expect you to answer to this obligation. I presented it last time and you did not accept it. But, the scripture remains. The obligation is valid. You should take your “faith” and withdraw, be silent and not continue to stir the pot on such matters. We will see if that happens.

I apologize for using the word badgering. That was unfair of me. But, after complaining about others for writing “pages and pages” of bulletin articles, etc. you have to ask yourself: “What is Matt doing?” You heap comment upon comment, and now an article that you are promoting on FB, followed by comment upon comment. How do you justify your continued involvement if you believe this is truly a matter of opinion? Why don’t you just let it go?

I know why I do not let it go. I am convinced that there is an element of compromise that brethren make on such matters, a willingness to compromise the truth of God to go along and get along with the world. It does not glorify the Savior to involve ourselves in the religious celebrations of his birthday “as if” we, too, are going along with the error. This kind of compromise is a slippery slope. Before you know it, Christians will be advocating full involvement in celebrating the birthday of Jesus, both on an individual as well as on a corporate (ie. church) level. There are quite a few “churches of Christ” that have already embraced the Christmas traditions. How do you think they got there?

If you will truly allow me the last word, then this will be all that is said on it (as it relates to you and me). I agree that it is the kind of subject that does NOT need to be debated every year. But, as long as there are differences of opinion, as well as differences in faith and practice, there will always be discussions. May they always be done in a kind and peaceful way. If I have failed to do this, then I trust someone will bring it to my attention.

Alan Williamson

Second, I have no agenda to push. My original entry point into a earlier discussion this week started over some implications about Florida College.

Third, regarding Romans 14, it makes no difference whether I regard myself as the “weak” or “strong” brother. The admonition in 14.10 still applies…. to me…. and to you.

Fourth, since you have admitted earlier this week that this matter is a matter of judgment – then it most certainly fits into the principles in Romans 14. Your desire to move this into Galatians 4.9-10 takes it out of the realm of personal liberty & moves it into a matter of right/wrong. Those who Paul addressed in Galatians had fallen from grace – see 5.4.

Finally, one short post on my personal blog, and my collection of Facebook comments this week can hardly be compared to “badgering,” especially when compared to the pages and pages of bulletin articles and hours of sermons that we read and hear this time of year promoting the opinions of those who share your conclusions.

You may have the last word. I hope you have a warm and wonderful holiday.

You want us to leave you alone to celebrate your Christmas in whatever way you decide (according to your opinion). To my knowledge no one has tried to play Grinch and steal your holiday, but if someone is out there I will be the first to reprove him for bothering you. But, your zeal to protect your opinion on this matter is misplaced and… according to Romans 14 – unscriptural. Care to examine the text and see what it REALLY says?

First, let me say that Romans 14 concerns matters on which God has revealed that it does not matter if you do / or if you don’t. You have NOT established that as of yet and I doubt that Galatians 4:9-10 will have any effect on your opinion. You have already decided that you are “permitted” by God to do Christmas. So, to Romans 14 we go.

The obligations of the weak brother is that he is NOT to judge the strong brother in matters that God has revealed are allowed. Even when the weak brother does not understand, or cannot participate due to his conscience, he is not to judge the strong brother. In short here is a list of the obligations God places on the weak brother:

Must be fully assured in his own mind – vs.5
Must not judge his brother – vs.3
Must give God thanks – vs.6
Must follow after peace… edifying – vs.19
Must follow his faith (to practice and teach it) – vs.23

But, what about the strong brother? Here is what Romans 14 says about the obligations God places on the strong brother:

Must receive the weak brother -vs.1
Must not set him at nought – vs.3
Must be fully assured in his own mind – vs.5
Must not put a stumbling block before his brother – vs.13
Must walk in love and not grieve the weak with his liberty – vs.15
Must not destroy the weak with his liberty – vs.15
Must follow after peace… edifying – vs.19
Must not overthrow the work of God for the sake of your liberty – vs.20
Must not use his liberty to “offend” – vs.20
Must keep his faith in this matter “to himself” before God – vs.22

Perhaps you should pay more attention to verse 22. – The faith which thou hast, have thou to thyself before God. Happy is he that judgeth not himself in that which he approveth.

Your continued badgering of those who disagree with your opinion, your “ire” as it flowed on Facebook and now, your self serving article entitled “the Annual Christmas Controversy” does not serve the cause of Christ. You are the one continuing to throw gasoline on this fire.

I admonish you to stop. God sit by your Christmas tree and worship however you see fit. But, stop promoting your opinion. It is NOT what God instructs the strong brother to do.

Alan Williamson

Praying for a successful trip!

Zack